Tape 009 - Clip 2
Short_Description:
Meeting Cont.
Vimeo_:
TranscriptText:
We were little nervous we already had Chris Yei doing poll for verification so
were going to integrate with that on the off chance that security has to back out or
something terrible happens we want to be in position to move ahead as quickly as
possible Also anticipating that this is going to slow us down little bit we are
doing we are trying to finish the windows for tonight if the tree actually opens up
tonight we could probably drop windows and UNIX in were Trying to get that
straight we have Rick Potts working with us so were trying to plan contingency
plans based upon history and being cautious But were we really think were in
very good shape even though its nerve wracking thing for you were really
in
the verification mode of our stuff and were verifying cross platform were not
expecting the final build to be ou.test
Page
Netscape Documentary
Tape 3/9/98
MT So we. .when do we believe Jeff will clear so the Java people can start Is that
tonight or is that Wednesday
TH believe Jeff will have some subset of clear which will not be completed tonight
MT When will the tree be clear enough for the Java people to start checking in
Why dont we call Jeff now..
Hes gonna pull hes doing merge and then after the merge hes gonna do
check in
JR Has he verified Has he done...
break
Ml Well there was some question about how who was saying this and how...how
true all this was This is the way...it has to be something where you cant you
could not reverse engineer and figure out what their decal was Were in
discussion about this right now Lloyds proposal is to concentrate on making the
right thing which is something that is shippable and ship and apology on 331
rather than shipping
jI\ .t-
LT That code we can say/Lib license and then well send you the patches and
you..
MT Right sign this NDA
LI ..and then put that as part of the apology
JC But its not just are they going to partition its in fact new access modes...its
already 11% now
break
If we decide thats what were going to do As soon as we make the decision then
we should post the results
MT All right
l-
Page
Netscape Documentary
Tape 93/9/98
....3
Becausethatwasone...f
4-
JZ OK so if we do ship this apology when are we shipping the mail source
JZ Thats not very good answer because when we ship that apology there should be
date..
LT Well maybe somebody will volunteer to help with this
We pulled the first calendar quarter out of our hind ends..
JZ We cant do anything if we dont have give them the source
MT Well lets not say something that we dont mean
Oh no dont say another date yet
MT No and whos gonna work on that now until the end of this quarter mean the
reason its not done now is theres no one to work on it People are not going to
fall from the sky in this building to work on it
you Imjust showing you the lunacy of doing that again right it was
an exercise right...if we dont ship the mail source on 331 we have lied no were
in damage control mode If we tell them were sony were going to ship the mail
source little bit later weve already lied to them we have to tell them how much
later or theyre just not going to believe us
All right then how do you quantify that is it uh sometime later this next quarter
like as saying some time later this next year..
OK Michael says he feels more comfortable with that sometime in 1998
MT If youre asking me right now given the state of the universe right now wouldnt
put anything up on this cycle
break
Page 10
Netscape Documentary
Tape 3/9/98
LT If you want the source well give you the source but youre going to have to pay
Im sorry...we cant do anything about it right now And were working to rectify
that but it be later on the year before we can rectify it Thats the truth right
JZ The point is we fucked up by saying were going to give you the source to
Netscape Communicator We said that We didnt say youre gonna have to pay
Neo-access to get the source to Netscape Communicator we said were giving you
Netscape Communicator on 331 So if were not giving the Netscape
Communicator on 331 we need way to address that
And think Lloyd just gave pretty good way..
think its really good way of addressing it
JZ By telling them that they have to pay NEO access before they can get the code
That is not going to fly
Were being very explicit about saying were...releasing the source for third parties
to which we have the right to release that and this is the third party we dont have
the right to release it so thats real good work around
JZ That does not even approximate matching peoples expectations joke
dont think so think weve been very explicit about what been telling people
JZ No promise you this is not the case We said communicator and theyre not
getting line of source code that has anything to do with E-mail from us unless
they pay neo-access money
MT Or any other communicator components
JZ Right
MT And frankly theres no calendar it might...jumbled conversation
LT Yeah but what the difference between this and Java
JR You built this up in your own head the wrong way Yes we lied...
0q/6 i3O6
Page 11
./
Netscape Documentary
Tape 3/9/98
think its mistake to say this is lying or misleading think its mistake even to
discuss it in that context Now we can screw up about delivering and we can find
out what we can deliver..
MT But you need to look at this from the outside world The outside world..
JZ Im not discussing it in this context just to be inflammatory or because Im upset
about it Im telling it to you in these tenns because this is what the public reaction
will be guarantee it
Because people explicitly asked us are you shipping Java and we said No were
probably not theres big problem and they said are you shipping just the
browser or are you shipping communicator...we said absolutely the whole
communicator were really serious communicator communicator communicator
read my lips communicator
LT So put the neo-access contract up on line...why cant you put contract on line It
just shows why we cant ship the source This is where it says we can ship the
source
My view is dont make the mistake..
Ml OK..time out...weve now timed out on my imaginary allotted time for this
discussion
laughter
Dave didnt hear you actually volunteer laugher
Yes will take the Neo-access database out of the source code laughter
MT Wheres the document is it hanging off of Daves source page
So sent her out an e-mail
Its actually hanging off the client source page go to client slash source...its not
Daves though its mine
Did you send it to Leeds in e-mail
Yes sent it to Leeds
Page 12
Netscape Documentary
Tape93/9198
particularly important point that is not clear yet at least dont know what the
answer is is version numbering We have to decide not to decide something there
consciously but right now dont understand the plan thats being proposed urn
whats going to be called what version on Oso theres meeting today at
think to talk about that some more...and whether or not were going to say anything
about road map version number road map and what we will disclose on features
JZ Version number for what what exactly are you talking about are you talking
about the communicator product version number or..
TH No the source
The question is...were going to release the source and on the thing it said this is
the source for well is it really the source for do you know what will
be know dont know my expeiience4is
that never know til much closer an
uh..
Somebody has proposal for us calling it source and..
We can decide to not call it anything but lets decide that..
So have another meeting that have to go to at but my preference is to label
thing with the date rather than version number you know were giving away
Netscape source to Communicator as of 331 98
Source 98..
general laughter
Thats open source 98
Then it would ship to the year 2000 laughter wed have to call it source 96 in
order to get the name straight
Another key piece is the road map sign you know trying to make sure we dont
set ourselves up surprising people with the 4x road map 4x products later and
whats the right balancing act there so we disclose the right amount of information
MT would really like to never ever hear about that class of problem
were going to integrate with that on the off chance that security has to back out or
something terrible happens we want to be in position to move ahead as quickly as
possible Also anticipating that this is going to slow us down little bit we are
doing we are trying to finish the windows for tonight if the tree actually opens up
tonight we could probably drop windows and UNIX in were Trying to get that
straight we have Rick Potts working with us so were trying to plan contingency
plans based upon history and being cautious But were we really think were in
very good shape even though its nerve wracking thing for you were really
in
the verification mode of our stuff and were verifying cross platform were not
expecting the final build to be ou.test
Page
Netscape Documentary
Tape 3/9/98
MT So we. .when do we believe Jeff will clear so the Java people can start Is that
tonight or is that Wednesday
TH believe Jeff will have some subset of clear which will not be completed tonight
MT When will the tree be clear enough for the Java people to start checking in
Why dont we call Jeff now..
Hes gonna pull hes doing merge and then after the merge hes gonna do
check in
JR Has he verified Has he done...
break
Ml Well there was some question about how who was saying this and how...how
true all this was This is the way...it has to be something where you cant you
could not reverse engineer and figure out what their decal was Were in
discussion about this right now Lloyds proposal is to concentrate on making the
right thing which is something that is shippable and ship and apology on 331
rather than shipping
jI\ .t-
LT That code we can say/Lib license and then well send you the patches and
you..
MT Right sign this NDA
LI ..and then put that as part of the apology
JC But its not just are they going to partition its in fact new access modes...its
already 11% now
break
If we decide thats what were going to do As soon as we make the decision then
we should post the results
MT All right
l-
Page
Netscape Documentary
Tape 93/9/98
....3
Becausethatwasone...f
4-
JZ OK so if we do ship this apology when are we shipping the mail source
JZ Thats not very good answer because when we ship that apology there should be
date..
LT Well maybe somebody will volunteer to help with this
We pulled the first calendar quarter out of our hind ends..
JZ We cant do anything if we dont have give them the source
MT Well lets not say something that we dont mean
Oh no dont say another date yet
MT No and whos gonna work on that now until the end of this quarter mean the
reason its not done now is theres no one to work on it People are not going to
fall from the sky in this building to work on it
you Imjust showing you the lunacy of doing that again right it was
an exercise right...if we dont ship the mail source on 331 we have lied no were
in damage control mode If we tell them were sony were going to ship the mail
source little bit later weve already lied to them we have to tell them how much
later or theyre just not going to believe us
All right then how do you quantify that is it uh sometime later this next quarter
like as saying some time later this next year..
OK Michael says he feels more comfortable with that sometime in 1998
MT If youre asking me right now given the state of the universe right now wouldnt
put anything up on this cycle
break
Page 10
Netscape Documentary
Tape 3/9/98
LT If you want the source well give you the source but youre going to have to pay
Im sorry...we cant do anything about it right now And were working to rectify
that but it be later on the year before we can rectify it Thats the truth right
JZ The point is we fucked up by saying were going to give you the source to
Netscape Communicator We said that We didnt say youre gonna have to pay
Neo-access to get the source to Netscape Communicator we said were giving you
Netscape Communicator on 331 So if were not giving the Netscape
Communicator on 331 we need way to address that
And think Lloyd just gave pretty good way..
think its really good way of addressing it
JZ By telling them that they have to pay NEO access before they can get the code
That is not going to fly
Were being very explicit about saying were...releasing the source for third parties
to which we have the right to release that and this is the third party we dont have
the right to release it so thats real good work around
JZ That does not even approximate matching peoples expectations joke
dont think so think weve been very explicit about what been telling people
JZ No promise you this is not the case We said communicator and theyre not
getting line of source code that has anything to do with E-mail from us unless
they pay neo-access money
MT Or any other communicator components
JZ Right
MT And frankly theres no calendar it might...jumbled conversation
LT Yeah but what the difference between this and Java
JR You built this up in your own head the wrong way Yes we lied...
0q/6 i3O6
Page 11
./
Netscape Documentary
Tape 3/9/98
think its mistake to say this is lying or misleading think its mistake even to
discuss it in that context Now we can screw up about delivering and we can find
out what we can deliver..
MT But you need to look at this from the outside world The outside world..
JZ Im not discussing it in this context just to be inflammatory or because Im upset
about it Im telling it to you in these tenns because this is what the public reaction
will be guarantee it
Because people explicitly asked us are you shipping Java and we said No were
probably not theres big problem and they said are you shipping just the
browser or are you shipping communicator...we said absolutely the whole
communicator were really serious communicator communicator communicator
read my lips communicator
LT So put the neo-access contract up on line...why cant you put contract on line It
just shows why we cant ship the source This is where it says we can ship the
source
My view is dont make the mistake..
Ml OK..time out...weve now timed out on my imaginary allotted time for this
discussion
laughter
Dave didnt hear you actually volunteer laugher
Yes will take the Neo-access database out of the source code laughter
MT Wheres the document is it hanging off of Daves source page
So sent her out an e-mail
Its actually hanging off the client source page go to client slash source...its not
Daves though its mine
Did you send it to Leeds in e-mail
Yes sent it to Leeds
Page 12
Netscape Documentary
Tape93/9198
particularly important point that is not clear yet at least dont know what the
answer is is version numbering We have to decide not to decide something there
consciously but right now dont understand the plan thats being proposed urn
whats going to be called what version on Oso theres meeting today at
think to talk about that some more...and whether or not were going to say anything
about road map version number road map and what we will disclose on features
JZ Version number for what what exactly are you talking about are you talking
about the communicator product version number or..
TH No the source
The question is...were going to release the source and on the thing it said this is
the source for well is it really the source for do you know what will
be know dont know my expeiience4is
that never know til much closer an
uh..
Somebody has proposal for us calling it source and..
We can decide to not call it anything but lets decide that..
So have another meeting that have to go to at but my preference is to label
thing with the date rather than version number you know were giving away
Netscape source to Communicator as of 331 98
Source 98..
general laughter
Thats open source 98
Then it would ship to the year 2000 laughter wed have to call it source 96 in
order to get the name straight
Another key piece is the road map sign you know trying to make sure we dont
set ourselves up surprising people with the 4x road map 4x products later and
whats the right balancing act there so we disclose the right amount of information
MT would really like to never ever hear about that class of problem
